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SAC-SWG-ENUM  August 2019

SAC-SWG-ENUM August 2019

Subject:

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

From:

"Marrou, Lance R." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 8 Aug 2019 20:51:50 +0000

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines) , CR04001C - CR to Update Russian RPG.xlsx (1 lines)

REV C - Some minor updates.

I am planning to re-update this CR to D to revert back to most of Orlando's original proposal.

Lance Marrou, Leidos, [log in to unmask]
12901 Science Drive, Orlando, Florida USA 32826, o: 407.243.3710


-----Original Message-----
From: SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Marrou, Lance R.
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2019 2:34 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

Ah, ok, now it's clicking for me. I will look at it again in that light. My primary goal was to not impact systems unless there's a good reason.

Lance Marrou, Leidos, [log in to unmask]
12901 Science Drive, Orlando, Florida USA 32826, o: 407.243.3710


-----Original Message-----
From: SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Orlando Laboy
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2019 2:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

I agree that much of the open source literature states that the PG-7VM has a caliber 70 mm. However my reasoning for using 40mm as SCAT is because 40mm is the caliber of the RPG-7V launcher. The 70mm caliber in the literature is the warhead caliber. The same launcher is also for the PG-7VS (warhead caliber of 72mm) and the TBG-7V (warhead caliber of 105mm). I used the same logic for all RPG type rounds. The advantage of this approach is that it groups all munitions that share a common launcher regardless of the warhead caliber. This is the same approach used for classifying SABOT rounds, these rounds are classified by the caliber of the SABOT (that matches the caliber of the gun) and not the caliber of the actual projectile/munition (which has a much smaller caliber). Maybe classifying the rounds by launcher type may remove some of the confusion but that proves impractical for munitions other than RPG rounds since there may be more than one gun that can fire the round.



Orlando J. Laboy
Senior Technical Specialist, Tactical Systems Defense & Security CAE USA T. +1-813-887-1368   E. [log in to unmask]
4908 Tampa West Blvd, Tampa, FL, 33634 USA


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-----Original Message-----
From: SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Marrou, Lance R.
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

In trying to move this CR forward, I've made an update.

REV B - Deleted extra wording (warhead) and spaces. Put back in some deprecated items and clarified the names. Moved deprecation to the end. Deleted the anti-personnel changes to move to another CR. Added some links

This is still a huge CR with lots of complicated and impactful changes. It makes for a very difficult review as we can't simply add the (easy) new stuff. Some comments on this:

1. I could find no references to the 40 mm rounds you said. The links I have put the PG-7VM as 70mm. Rather than make a new SCAT for it, however, I left it in the 73 mm class and updated the name to specify 70 mm. A link is provided 2. So, based on that, I withdraw the specific 40 mm rounds, but left the class. Need some links for these because I find contrary ones 3. The first two entries under 85 mm really should be clarified. Unfortunately, I think some are using new entries for things that this was meant for. This actually also applies to some other entries for other calibers.
4. RPG-7vat was pulled to discuss in a separate CR 5. Where is 2.2.222.2.23.5? It's ok to skip, just curious 6. PG-16 is a change. I guess I'm okay with this since we aren't putt the PG-16 elsewhere and if people still just use the 58 mm entry, it will still be ok. I doubt there will be much more if any 58mm antitank rockets 7. I removed all the anti-personnel entries to move to another CR


I'm good with this CR as-is (to approve), but it really needs additional review and comments on the above items. My recommendation is that if there are more sticking points to move them to other CRs.

Lance Marrou, Leidos, [log in to unmask]
12901 Science Drive, Orlando, Florida USA 32826, o: 407.243.3710


-----Original Message-----
From: SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Marrou, Lance R.
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 10:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

I have a few comments below. In general, it's really bad practice to deprecate items without good cause or even an explanation. What's worse is that there is no linking to the corrected version if the deprecation is due to miscategorization.

1. I don't really see what value adding "warhead" to the description has. If you're deleting "cartridge" in some of the descriptions, "warhead" has the same level of value.

2. I don't agree with deprecating 2.2.222.2.4.1. This is a PG-9. Also, you don't provide a link or explanation.

3. I don't agree with renaming 2.2.222.2.4.3. This is a PG-9V.

4. I don't agree with deprecating 2.2.222.2.4.7. There is a 73mm version for the 7 (PG-7VS). Maybe it needs to be renamed. There is also a 70mm 7VM one, though.

5. I don't agree with deprecating 2.2.222.2.20. This is in use, though I can't point to a specific munition. I think this needs to be addressed separately so we can find out the exact munition used and then either rename it or point those folks to the correct value.

I haven't read through all the updates. I'm hoping they're just adding WARHEAD and removing CARTRIDGE, and no hidden technical changes amongst the editorial changes. It makes it very difficult to read. When I do renaming, I put the previous name in the comment field. If additional links are needed, you can use the Comments tab for that.

Recommend this CR go to rework.

Lance Marrou, Leidos, [log in to unmask]
12901 Science Drive, Orlando, Florida USA 32826, o: 407.243.3710

-----Original Message-----
From: SAC-SWG-ENUM <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of David Ronnfeldt
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 1:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: CR to Update Russian RPG

I have reviewed this CR, and found several errors. (Actually I had to review it, because the toolset came back with some errors)

• Trying to deprecate items, and change descriptions at the same time cannot be done.
• Some warheads were being listed under the wrong calibre
• I like the suggested format for the descriptions, so updated the other anti-amour ballistic information to match.
• RMG HEAT-Thermobaric warhead moved to anti-personnel (as that is what the Thermobaric seem to mostly used for)

So here is an update:

Rev A – general tidy-up and updated additional description wording.

Regards,

David Ronnfeldt

Simulation Standards Officer
Australian Defence Simulation and Training Centre Joint Operations Command
10 Whyalla Street (FYD-01-21)
PO Box 7940
Canberra BC ACT 2610
Ph: +61 (0)2 6266 1669
Mb: +61 (0)439 185 513


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